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self-taught-mba -



Quote:

That's why most Chinese people didn't write until the advent of cell phones and the internet.
Technology has allowed many more Chinese to express themselves in writing (and has allowed many
more foreigners to write Chinese).

Most of them however did write or at least tried to.

I agree technology is making things easier. (That's why at our study in China course we only teach
people how to type/text message.)

However, again it is only the elite that have access to this technology. (Many people in China
still don't have the money to do so)

Also, unfortunately the educational system has been slow to take this up. This is also true most
of the courses that teach Chinese to foreigners.

Technology has be potential to eliminate all of these problems and make characters more viable
than ever before. However, until everyone can afford the technology and can be used in everyday
life, it will be hard. In the current system will continue to amass billions upon billions upon
billions upon billions of hours of lost productivity for the Chinese people.



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djwebb2004 -



Quote:

Agreed. If you can't support your point, don't attempt to make it.

Roddy, he was only sticking up for his culture against foreigners arguing it should be changed. We
do need some Chinese input in the debate. He is the first Chinese to take part!! To condemn him
for being "emotional" misses the point: characters are part of culture, not just a utilitarian way
of communicating. Most people in most nations would get emotional in the face of foreigners
arguing for the redundancy of their culture!

My Chinese friend put it this way: "Westerners seem to think characters a hindrance; other Asians,
including SE Asians who don't use characters, look on characters as an ingenious Chinese
invention, very appropriate for the Chinese language".










djwebb2004 -

1. I agree that no Chinese person I know knows how to write the 嚔 character.They do recognize,
but cannot write it. The character is part of the 7000 tongyongzi published by the government, but
not part of the 3500 changyongzi.

2. Arguing that in "old China" 95% were illiterate is irrelevant. There was not a comprehensive
education system. Are you arguing that now that there is a full education system, people leave
middle school still illiterate? Unless you are saying that, you don't have a point.

3. I would like to ask people, including the Chinese man who tried to intervene on this board, how
understandable the following passage is. Please don't just say it is not understandable to prove
your point, but try to read it. It is a randomly chosen passage, and I think it is largely
readable, but I think 2 or 3 characters may be unclear in pinyin. Is that because a foreigner may
not know those words? Would all Chinese be able to understand the following passage?

"Zhè yě shì yǒu lì de. Bǐrú Zhàoguó de lǎojiàng Lián Pō, wèile biǎoshì zìjǐ
bǎodāobùlǎo, xióngfēngyóuzài, biàn céngjīng zài Zhào Wáng de shǐzhě miànqián,
yīkǒuqì chīle yīdǒu mǐ, shíjīn ròu. Yīncǐ Xīn Qìjí cái yǒu "píng shuí wèn:
Lián Pō lǎo yǐ, shàng néng fàn fǒu" de shījù. Kěxī Zhào Wáng de shǐzhě shòule
Lián Pō zhèngdí de huìlù, huíqù hòu huìbào shuō: Lián lǎo jiāngjun de fànliàng
mánhǎo de, zhǐshì xiāohuà xìtǒng bútài língguāng. Yīdùn fàn de gōngfu, shàngle
sāncì cèsuǒ. Zhào Wáng yītīng, biàn fànle dígu. Dígu de jiéguǒ, zéshi Lián Pō
báichīle nàme duō mǐfàn hé jiǔròu. Fán Kuài de yùnqi jiù hǎo duōle. Yīnwèi Fán
Kuài shì dāngzhe Xiàng Yǔ de miàn chī hē de. Hóngményàn shang, Xiàng Yǔ yuánběn
yào shā Liú Bāng, jiéguǒ bèi Fán Kuài jiǎohuáng le. Fán Kuài chōngjìn
yànhuìtīng, dàwǎn hējiǔ, dàkuài chīròu, érqiě chì de shì shēng zhūtuǐ, jiǎnzhí
jiùshi shuàidāikùbì, nòngde Xiàng Yǔ quánrán wàngjìle zìjǐ yào gàn shénme, Liú
Bāng yě jiù chènjī liūzhīdàjí. Liú Bāng kāiliū qián, wèn Fán Kuài yàobuyào qù
gàocí. Fán Kuài shuō: "Jīnrén fāng wéi dāozǔ, wǒ wéi yúròu, hé cí wéi?"
Zhuàngzāi Fán Kuài, búkuì shì néngchī shànyǐn de hànzi, zhè jiàndì shì héděng
liǎode!"










roddy -

Fair enough. If you can't support your point calmly and politely, don't attempt to make it.










gato -



Quote:

t is a randomly chosen passage,

"Zhè yě shì yǒu lì de. Bǐrú Zhàoguó de lǎojiàng Lián Pō, wèile biǎoshì zìjǐ
bǎodāobùlǎo, xióngfēngyóuzài, biàn céngjīng zài Zhào Wáng de shǐzhě miànqián,
yīkǒuqì chīle yīdǒu mǐ, shíjīn ròu. Yīncǐ Xīn Qìjí cái yǒu "píng shuí wèn:
Lián Pō lǎo yǐ, shàng néng fàn fǒu" de shījù. Kěxī Zhào Wáng de shǐzhě shòule
Lián Pō zhèngdí de huìlù, huíqù hòu huìbào shuō: Lián lǎo jiāngjun de fànliàng
mánhǎo de, zhǐshì xiāohuà xìtǒng bútài língguāng. Yīdùn fàn de gōngfu, shàngle
sāncì cèsuǒ. Zhào Wáng yītīng, biàn fànle dígu. Dígu de jiéguǒ, zéshi Lián Pō
báichīle nàme duō mǐfàn hé jiǔròu. Fán Kuài de yùnqi jiù hǎo duōle. Yīnwèi Fán
Kuài shì dāngzhe Xiàng Yǔ de miàn chī hē de. Hóngményàn shang, Xiàng Yǔ yuánběn
yào shā Liú Bāng, jiéguǒ bèi Fán Kuài jiǎohuáng le. Fán Kuài chōngjìn
yànhuìtīng, dàwǎn hējiǔ, dàkuài chīròu, érqiě chì de shì shēng zhūtuǐ, jiǎnzhí
jiùshi shuàidāikùbì, nòngde Xiàng Yǔ quánrán wàngjìle zìjǐ yào gàn shénme, Liú
Bāng yě jiù chènjī liūzhīdàjí. Liú Bāng kāiliū qián, wèn Fán Kuài yàobuyào qù
gàocí. Fán Kuài shuō: "Jīnrén fāng wéi dāozǔ, wǒ wéi yúròu, hé cí wéi?"
Zhuàngzāi Fán Kuài, búkuì shì néngchī shànyǐn de hànzi, zhè jiàndì shì héděng
liǎode!"

Come on. There are 文言文 in that passage:
"Jīnrén fāng wéi dāozǔ, wǒ wéi yúròu, hé cí wéi?"

You can't expect people to understand 成语 and 文言文 written in pinyin. Try a dialog from a
soap opera and see if people can understand it.










djwebb2004 -



Quote:

Come on. There are 文言文 in that passage:
"Jīnrén fāng wéi dāozǔ, wǒ wéi yúròu, hé cí wéi?"

You can't expect people to understand 成语 and 文言文 written in pinyin. Try a dialog from a
soap opera and see if people can understand it.

Why can't you expect people to understand chengyu and wenyanwen? It comes back to my point that a
script reform would mandate a change in style - something that is not strictly within the purview
of script reform per se. People should be able to write everything they currently write, just as
they currently write it, in any proposed new script.










heifeng -

Hmm, as a westerner studying Chinese I can see both side of this argument. However as much as
productivity is a big deal, I think that tradition and culture are also important to a country's
language.

Otherwise language was purely based on efficiency and productivity then English (especially as an
international language) should have also undergone a revolution as well to simplify spelling and
also boost literacy and facilitate the learning of it as a second language. (Again, due to
technology, it will be easier than ever here[/url][ and here. ) But no, language has many human
aspects to it and take away or mess with it too much and you are removing a part of people's
identity...etc..I would be against reform to English spelling and also just consider it "dumbing
down" of the language, so I think it is pretty natural for people to resist change to their own
language, even if those changes made it more "logical" and "efficient" or not...

Yeah, and I can't handle looking at the above pinyin, it just makes my head hurt. I'd rather just
vote for characters. I'm sure my learning all these characters in the very least will keep my mind
active enough to ward of alzheimers or something...Also I may not have even chosen to study
Chinese if it wasn't for it having characters...










trien27 -

The character "khan" in khan yan in the Dungan language, means dry in that language, but the
character doesn't mean dry in Chinese, so no Chinese would be able to read or understand Dungan,
unless it's been learnt.

So learning pinyin can limit you knowledge of Chinese characters.










self-taught-mba -



Quote:

The character "khan" in khan yan in the Dungan language, means dry in that language, but the
character doesn't mean dry in Chinese, so no Chinese would be able to read or understand Dungan,
unless it's been learnt.

So learning pinyin can limit you knowledge of Chinese characters.

HUH? Please explain










djwebb2004 -

The passage in Chinese is as follows. it comes from a book by Professor Yi Zhongtian, but is by no
means the most chengyu laden part. It contains a few chengyu and relatively easy wenyanwen. I am
wondering if an educated Chinese could understand it in pinyin.

这也是有例的。比如赵国的老将廉颇，为了表示自己宝刀不老，雄风犹在，�
��曾经在赵王的使者面前，一口气吃了一斗米、十斤肉。因此辛弃疾才有“��
�谁问：廉颇老矣，尚能饭否”的诗句。可惜赵王的使者受了廉颇政敌的贿赂
，回去后汇报说：廉老将军的饭量蛮好的，只是消化系统不太灵光。一顿饭�
��功夫，上了三次厕所。赵王一听，便犯了嘀咕。嘀咕的结果，则是廉颇白��
�了那么多米饭和酒肉。樊哙的运气就好多了。因为樊哙是当着项羽的面吃喝
的。鸿门宴上，项羽原本要杀刘邦，结果被樊哙搅黄了。樊哙冲进宴会厅，�
��碗喝酒，大块吃肉，而且吃的是生猪腿，简直就是帅呆酷毙，弄得项羽全��
�忘记了自己要干什么，刘邦也就趁机溜之大吉。刘邦开溜前，问樊哙要不要
去告辞。樊哙说：“今人方为刀俎，我为鱼肉，何辞为？”壮哉樊哙,不愧是
能吃善饮的汉子,这见地是何等了得!












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