Chinese Pinyin - Guide for Formatting Wiki Articles in

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gato -

Simplified the formatting guide to reflect the new style.










muyongshi -

When I get around to it










muyongshi -

Dang you beat me!










muyongshi -



Quote:

Well I should be able to make CSS changes on the back end to get it looking how we want. What
changes do you reckon need to be made?

Can you tell me what the font sizes are preset to now from h1 down to h4 or h5.

Also if we could reduce the spacing in between each header that would be great.

A general rule in page layout (more familiar with that than HTML) is your H1 and H2 should have no
larger than a 2 pt. reduction in size and then after that no more than a 1 pt reduction per header
and usually by the time you get to H3 or H4 you are at a 12pt font

so

H1=16pt
h2=14pt
h3=13pt
h4=12pt
etc.

You usually will not get down to that many points and actually after h4 you may not reduce the
font size just change style.

Of course Style changes work great in the h1-h4 as well...










gato -

Currently, there seems to be two blank spaces between h1 and h2. Should be just one or maybe 1.5.
That may also be the case between the other headings.












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Speak Chinese - whats this say? -

> Learning Chinese > Chinese Tattoos, Chinese Names and Quick Translations
whats this say?
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jesselindsay -

this should be simple,just wanted to know what this note says and if possable what the text on the
scroll translates to.

thanks a lot!

jesse



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oscar3 -

The note 董耀四幅 says four drawings by 董耀, a famous Chinese painter.










studentyoung -

Sorry, I don’t have enough time to explain it very clear today. All I can tell you is that the
calligraphy work in your second picture is really wonderful. It might be written by a calligrapher
during the end of Ming Dynasty and the beginning of Qing Dynasty, whose name was 董燿 Dong3Yao4,
(as long as it isn’t a copycat.)

Thanks!










jesselindsay -

thanks a lot! the image on the scroll is below but i really want to find out what the script says
as well as finding out who the painter is.

thanks for your time!










studentyoung -



Quote:

the image on the scroll is below but i really want to find out what the script says as well as
finding out who the painter is.

I can tell you that in the script, Mr. Dong compared his paintings with another painter in Yuan
Dynasty named Ni, Yu. Mr. Dong thought his taste was close to Mr. Ni. Mr. Dong also felt confident
that f his poems contained the essence of Mr. Tao Yuanming’s. (Mr. Tao Yuanming was also a
famous poet in Jin Dynasty.)

Oh, my! The painting is also very wonderful, which matches the calligraphy perfectly!

Thanks!

_______________________________________________________________
雅画重倪迂，有无论清俗，陡壑与崇岩，豪枯愈峭卓，味得陶诗腴，简淡不�
��足。
——山浞吾道人董燿
印：枯匏书画

评(画)：着墨淡雅清新，构图错落有致，笔法简练老到，意境古朴含蓄。—��
�佳作！
评(字)：气韵流畅，飘逸自然，虽有欧体的影子，但二王的味道要重些，尤��
�是“董燿”两个字，二王的味道好重。——好字！
（要是我可以亲自拿着来赏玩几天就好了！——可惜呀，没这个福！）










jesselindsay -

thanks a lot! i have a few more ill be posting in the future,i hope to hear from you again!

do you know of any other work by the painter or if he is famous?

thank you so much for your time

jesse










studentyoung -



Quote:

so is there any way you could date this painting? i have a few more ill be posting in the future,i
hope to hear from you again!

Do you mean if there is any way I can tell when this painting was painted? Sorry, I just can tell
you that Mr. Dong Yao was from 1800 to 1883. I can’t judge that whether it is a fake one by the
photo you offer. Can you tell me where you are, say which city and which country are you in, so
that I can guide you to some other people really in this field to give you more professional help?

Thanks!










jesselindsay -

im in vancouver,wa for now but may move soon to alaska soon for work.

i also have these 2 i am very interested in learning about,any thoughts? the rolled up one is
different then the last 2.

thanks for your help

jesse










studentyoung -



Quote:

im in vancouver,wa for now but may move soon to alaska soon for work.

i also have these 2 i am very interested in learning about,any thoughts? the rolled up one is
different then the last 2.

Perfect! You got something perfect! Oh, dear! I highly recommend you contact an auction company
named “Southeby”, where I think you can get more professional help. Check the link below,
please.
http://www.sothebys.com/about/contact/index.html

Picture 1: 宋徽宗松溪远岫图真迹神品 the genuine perfect painting of “Pine Creek and
Mountain” by Emperor Huizong in Song Dynasty Emperor Huizong in Song Dynasty is also a
well-known famous painter in China.

Picture 2: see in picture3

Picture 3: 伖刘松年霜月寒鸦图于丙申夏日雪江赵登 印：雪江Mr. Zhao Deng, whose
alias was “Snow River” collected a painting named “Frosty Moon and Crow” by Mr. Liu
Songnian’ in the summer of the year BingShen in Song Dynasty. The seal: “Snow River”
Mr. Liu Song Nian was a royal painter in Song Dynasty. Mr. Zhao Deng might be an unknown scholar
in Song Dynasty. It seems that Mr. Zhao somehow got Mr. Liu’s painting.

Anyway, good luck! (And I think you are very lucky so far！)

Thanks!










skylee -

Sotheby's












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Learn mandarin - Is it that hard for me to find a foreign boyfriend?! - Page 9 -

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Myriam -

Thank you.



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HSK - BLCU Feb 2008-contact each other - Page 6 -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools
BLCU Feb 2008-contact each other
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eunikediana -

it's working now. you can send email for me from this site.

Anyway, i will be glad to give out information off course, but i dunno what is it that you need
excatly.

aditthana, dorm in BLCU are expensive, they have just been renovated, the most wanted one is the
one in building 17. as for the Conference Centre, that is the dorm that's actually like Hotel,
seriously expensive, you could actually stay outside of BLCU, apartment cost are varied from 1500
- 3000 for a room

There are several places you could consider, Dong Wang Zhuang, this is a 6 floor building without
elevator, the price varies from 1500-2000 a room, and most oftenly you shared an apartment with
others. if you are willingly to spend more but you prefer to have a more quiet life, you could
stay at Furunjiayuan.

Furunjiayuan is located in front of the East Gate of BLCU, it's like 10 minutes walking (depend
how fast you walk really) It has 6 new buildings with a clean and safe (24 HR Police and guards)
nice environment and it has mini market 24 hour and deliverable, and also others such as laundry
and cafe house. This is the most recomended place I can say for a student to live in. A lot of
foreigner stay in here, mostly those who are new to Beijing. Because a city can be pretty but
cruel too in the same time.

I happen to have a friend subleting their 2 rooms in a 3 bed room apartment in Furunjiayuan. 1 is
master bedroom cost 2500 monthly and the other is a small room which cost you 2000 monthly. the
monthly expense bill will vary from 50-75RMB.

so from now i guess you could do some calculation for the accomodation.

There are more issues i am sure, so do post me with questions, i will be more than happy to answer.

Anyway, let's talk more about where do you people are going to stay once you are arrived?Hotel?



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Venoblast -

Hi everybody,

First of all let me congratulate all that have alaready got their permission letters, and my
condolences to those who haven`t.

I have received all needed documents a month ago, this friday I will get my visa.

The only problem now is accomodation! "Privet Merrise i vsem russkogovoryashim" by the way!

I`ve heard that BLCU dorms are really different, some of them are pretty good others look like
communal flats. Woman from the admission office told me I can reserve room by phone. Of course
there will be a certain charge for booking.

Better come earlier and see yourself where you are going to stay for at least 1 semester.

Here are some price I`ve got from ISC.

ISC Residence Single room
Standard type: $18 per day
Studio type: $28 per day


Private Apartment
Single Occupancy: $ 280 per week
Two-bedroom apartment: $ 210 per week
Three-bedroom apartment: $170 per week

Host family
Single with meal: $25 per day
Double with meal: $18 per day

I`ve got some mails from Beijing Foreign Student Activities Center, you can visit their website
www.iscbj.com. Rooms are pretty good, neat and tidy on the photos. They also do have flats and
host family opportunities. It`s not far from BLCU about 20 minuts afoot. And 7 minutes on bike,
though it depends...

Also you can visit this theme http://www. /showthread.php?t=6326. I was started
in 2005, but I hope it can be helpfull somehow.

Any suggestions, have anybody found better place to live from the point of convenience and price?

I will be happy to hear from you guys, do not hesitate to contact me, especially beautiful girls .
By the way is there any restrictions on your roommate`s sex?

All who wants to learn russian a little bit or more, please welcome.

See ya guys,

Tahir

email: venoblast@mail.ru
msn: venoblast@mail.ru
cellphone number: +996 555 925868










mikesjo -

veno, what currency are those prices, american/canadian?










Venoblast -

mikesjo - Of course prices are in US dollaras as it international currency. Are you from Canada?










agentjeff -

just to give you guys an idea, im going to blcu in feb and just paid for my room in a 3 bedroom
apt. The cost is 2000rmb/month = about $270USD/month, about $1400USD for 5 months. However, we
have to pay for utilities ourselves. It's about a 15 minute walk from blcu.










mikesjo -

veno - yep canada here, you?

agentjeff - how much is utilities? Do you know your room mates and where did you look for the
apartment? Online or local in beijing?

thx!










Venoblast -

mikesjo - Kyrgyz Republic, do you know?










eddie9684 -

hello,

i have some questions about the application fee paid by t/t, has anyone experienced problems with
it because it has like 3 swift..

so should i one of the 3 there ? or do i have to do something special...?

and i want to know if the documents ( academic diploma or certificate of university education) has
to be certified after translated to english?

also i would like to know how long do they take usually to send the letter of acceptance and visa
form JW202 back?












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Learn mandarin - schedule -

> Learning Chinese > Grammar and Vocabulary
schedule
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82riceballs -

I'm wondering what the following mean. Can someone explain them please?
生物科技 biology technology?
聯課活動 some sort of activity?



thanks in advance



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knight778 -

The first one probably means "Biotechnology".


As to "聯課活動", it's a part of daily schooling which aims to bring students closer to
society and learn more things than just what teachers told, also it plays role that help teachers
communicate with students in order to increase mutual understanding...












82riceballs -

thanks!












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Free Chinese Lesson - Lectures from Chinese Universities -

> Learning Chinese > Resources and General Study Issues
Lectures from Chinese Universities
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csit -

While wandering around the Internet Archive today, I came across a set of Chinese university
lectures from Beida, Tsinghua, etc.

http://www.archive.org/details/chinese_u_lectures

The one I checked are videos in .rm format.

The topics lean towards science and business, but some social sciences and humanities are
represented as well:
http://www.archive.org/browse.php?fi...ese_u_lectures



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roddy -

Nice find! I just downloaded one at random (first in the Basics of Unix course) and it looks like
it would be extremely useful for someone with decent knowledge of Chinese who wants to pick up
ways of talking about a specific field.

That one at least is an online lesson, with a powerpoint presentation taking up most of the screen
and the lecturer in a little video box talking to you and pointing at the relevant bit of the
notes.










gato -

Good stuff. Here are some lectures on Confucius and an assortment of other old wise men.
http://www.archive.org/details/chinese_u_humanitiesb1
Chinese Language and Literature
Creator: Peking University
Date: 2004












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Chinese Online Class - Best way to get a HSK Level 3 -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools
Best way to get a HSK Level 3
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cliveloughlin -

Hey team

I know that many of you have taken the HSK Basic and Elem/Inter tests and I would like to ask your
advice (just quickly!)

I will start to study in BNU from next week on the trial degree programe. Before I can progress to
the full degree next year, I need to get a level 3 on HSK and was wondering if you had any insight
on which test would be easier to score a 3?

At present I can speak quite well and my listening is very good. Reading and writing are my weak
points. I can read about 400 characters and write only about 40 (I never have paid any attention
to writing).

I am afraid that if I plan to take Elem/Inter I may not reach the level required for a 3 but the
actual percentage required to get a level 3 on the Basic test is much higher. Do you think it is
best to take Basic and just focus on getting up to the 1000 characters/words in the next 2 months
(test in November)? I guess Elem/Inter could come next year??

Do you have any insight? Anyone been in this predicament?

Thanks so much for any advice you can give!
Cj



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Long Pan -

Go and buy some HSK annals and train, especially the reading section wich is definitely the most
difficult for the beginners (the listening part is quite easy if you practice well - they always
ask the same kind of questions and repeat each sentence once; and the grammar is also not very
complicated). Do not bother on the writting at this point (reading is enough). Concidering what
you tell about you current level, reaching a 3 in November should be possible (especially if you
study here in China)










yingguoguy -

I did the HSK Intermediate this spring and scored a high 4. The ClavisSinica test tells me that I
know about 1400 characters. I've never done the Basic, but I was planning to at one point and did
a few practice papers. I would consider my reading to be well in advance of my speaking and
listening, but on the test I got about equal results in all sections. Remember that lots of
Japanese and Koreans do this test and so this already puts you at a disadvantage. If your reading
is weak as well your going to really struggle with the Intermediate. Also I found the Intermediate
gap fill section quite challenging. I can write reasonably well in free composition, but often
just don't know which character it is they want me to write in the gaps.

Notice that the Basic has three sections; Listening, Grammar and Reading. Not knowing too many
characters is not going to affect your listening, and I find that you can do a lot of the grammer
by pattern matching, that is even if you don't know any of the words in the sentence except for
the basic grammar characters, you can work out which one is the verb, which is the noun from the
way they arrange the four possible answers. So you should be able to get 3's on Listening and
Grammar and then be okay just getting a 2 on Reading.

On the other hand not knowing characters is likely to have a serious impact nearly all the
sections of the Intermediate test. You have to write characters and choose characters for the
cloze test, and not knowing words in the grammar section is really going to stuff you up. Even on
the listening I lost some marks because I didn't understand a couple of characters in the answers.

Note that the Intermediate test has changed this year. I did the old one, which they are scrapping
next year. If you wait till next year you'll have to do more writing and a speaking section.
(Which would be bad for me, but maybe good for you.)

By next year, do you mean the next academic year (i.e. September) or the actual next year
(January)?

If it's January, then your going to have to cram as quickly as possible. In this case I'd probably
take the Basic as I doubt their is much chance of getting higher than a 3 in the time available
(the reading is tough) and doing the Intermediate test at this level can be demoralizing when only
scoring around 50%.

If you've got until September, I'd work on your reading for the next few months and then start
trying out the Beginner mock tests in January and seeing how you're doing.

I find that writing the characters helps me to remember, so I wouldn't abandon it completely, but
then everyone has their own methods.










yonglin -

With your previous knowledge, you will definitely be able to do the elem/int test after half a
year in China.

A couple of points:

1. Answering HSK reading comprehension questions without actually being able to read much of the
text is a skill: you should practise reading a lot, in addition to learning words and characters.
Reading a lot will help you remember the characters you have already learnt as well.

2. You can actually get a fairly high score on the HSK without filling particularly many boxes.
You could get a 3 (and probably a 4 too) without filling out a single box. I usually know about 5
of them and guess wildly on another ten (I got a 5 this June). The multiple-choice part of the
zonghe has a lot of grammar-based questions, so you should be able to get quite a few of them
right without having a very extensive vocabulary.

3. Not being intimidated is another skill: since the Elem/Int exam measures all the way from level
3 to 8, there are really easy questions, and there are really, really difficult ones. You must
make sure to get all the easy ones right and not to think too much about the other ones. This is
particularly important in the reading sections, where some texts are quite easy and others seem
impenetrable.










cliveloughlin -

Hi guys

Thanks for the input - I think I have to get the 3 before the end of this academic year
(June/July) - I will check when I start at BNU on Monday.

I'm probably going to try the Basic in November just for the heck of it - it's cheap and it will
either scare me into studying hard or I'll get the 3 early (likely the former!).

Cheers again
Cj










Long Pan -

What I liked in the basic (基础) is that you can get a pretty good score while still being a
beginner, which make you feel great and gives you confidence . So I would rather recommend you at
that stage to focus on the 基础 rather than the intermediate (初中) eventhough from a
statistical point of view, getting a 3 through the 初中 might be easier than getting a 3 in the
基础 (which basically means that you get more than 90% correct answer in all sections). You can
of course try both.

As it was pointed out by Yingguoguy, mind that next year the tests will change; for sure the
初中 will. Don't know for the 基础










outcast -

I've tried looking and I haven't found any information about the exam change. Anyone got a link?










kudra -

long pan -- how did you come up with that 90% number?










Long Pan -

It is not 90%, but 82% - check here
You need a minimum of 210 points to get a 3 (see table 3); table 2 shows that for one section, 90%
of correct answer equals 76 points. So to get 210 points in 3 sections you need an average of 70
points per section which is equivalent to 70/76*90=82% of correct answers










gato -



Quote:

table 2 shows that for one section, 90% of correct answer equals 76 points. So to get 210 points
in 3 sections you need an average of 70 points per section which is equivalent to 70/76*90=82% of
correct answers



Quote:

http://www.hsk.org.cn/english/Intro_hsk1.aspx
A section score of HSK (Basic) is a scale score between 0 and 100, with 50 as the score mean and
15 as the standard deviation. The total score ranges between 0 and 300 as the total of the section
scores. The section scores show the relative position of the candidate in a standard sample group.

The 90% in the table is not necessarily the "percentage correct" but a scaled score based on a
curve.


Quote:

The second line indicates the percentage occupied by those whose scores are lower than the
corresponding scores in the standard HSK reference group.

This is the percentile rank. 90% means the test taker's score is better than 90% of the all test
takers.

The table does not list any raw score, i.e. number of questions or % answered correct listed in
the table.

See these two threads on HSK scoring:
http://www. /showthread.php?t=10503
HSK paper marking question
http://www. /showth...533#post107533
Re: Ask and Answer——HSK












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Learn mandarin - CET Harbin: My Final Assessment -

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CET Harbin: My Final Assessment
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-葛亚辉- -

Well, I have now completed my summer in CET Harbin’s program, and I thought I’d take some time
to write out my assessment of the various aspects of the program for anyone who is interested.

Classes: By and large, these were great. CET Harbin requires four classes, your one-on-one,
one-on-two, and two electives. I found three of my four classes to be incredibly helpful and also
enjoyable (the fourth, 口语/”Conversation” was helpful, but not particularly enjoyable). The
one-on-one, which is CET Harbin’s most enticing special point, is a fantastic opportunity, and I
loved my class and got a ton out of it. However, I would suggest taking some care when selecting
your topic, and being very very specific about what kinds of things you want to study. The
two-on-one class focuses pretty much entirely on pronunciation, and is also incredibly useful. I
really have no complaints about CETs classes, except that the textbook we used for my Conversation
class was pretty boring (although the vocab is all useful). No class was bigger than 6 people. A+
to CET Harbin on this one.

Language Pledge: Lots of Chinese programs have a language pledge in place, but from what I’ve
heard, these pledges are often not well respected, especially in places like Beijing, where there
are tons of English speakers. CET Harbin students (at least the ones in my session) were by and
large very serious about the language pledge, and it was very rarely broken. Additionally, Harbin
isn’t easy to get around using English, so the immersion enviornment is almost certainly better
than in Beijing.

Chinese Roommates: Another CET specialty, the Chinese roommates were an integral part of our
experience. As I expounded on earlier on this blog, learning culture is pretty important in
understanding a language, and they were incredibly helpful to that end. They were also, on the
whole, friendly and very willing to help people do the more difficult things (buy and activate a
cell phone, etc.). Moreover, it’s incredibly satisfying when you realize that you’re having
real conversations with Chinese college students, whether they be jokes over beers at Lijiang or
late night discussions of cultural differences. And of course, by the time you leave, you’ll
probably realize you’ve made some good Chinese friends.

Harbin Environment: If you’re not the sort of person who needs a big city like Beijing to have
fun, Harbin is pretty much perfect. The Chinese spoken there is very standard, the only deviation
being a slightly strange pronunciation of the “o” sound in “mo”, “po”, “fo”, etc.
The area around Gongda is full of good restaurants large and small. There are plenty of things to
do at night, bars, KTV, clubs, etc., and also a fair number of touristy sights, including the
famous St. Sophia, Buddhist and Confucian Temples, Zhongyang Dajie, the Songhua River, Taiyang
Island, etc. Some people didn’t like Harbin very much, but personally I loved it, and I plan to
go back.

CET Facilities: The dorm rooms are large, comfortable, and decently equipped. In fact, given that
they provide a TV and every room has a fan, my room was significantly better equipped than any
college dorm room I’ve been in in the States. For classes, CET uses Gongda’s international
student center, which is pretty unremarkable. The classrooms are equipped with air conditioners,
although they don’t always cool rooms very fast.

Weekend Trips: By and large these were good, the highlights being Xianglu Shan and the three-day
weekend trip to Dandong which you’ve already read about. Near the end of the program they got
sort of lame, but that was actually something of a blessing as by that time many of us were
familiar with Harbin and had a good idea of what we wanted to do with our free time on our own.

Overall: CET Harbin is an incredible experience. It’s not for everyone, and if you aren’t
really serious about improving your Chinese or you’re looking for a relaxing touristy summer, I
strongly advise you to stay away, but if you are serious about studying Chinese I think you might
be hard pressed to find a better program for it. In all honesty, my biggest complaint about the
whole thing was that the dialogues in one of my textbooks were a little boring, and I think that
speaks to the quality of the program. The people who work at CET Harbin are very dedicated to
improving your Chinese, and also appear to be constantly reviewing and revising their staff.
Obviously, enrollment in a program like this doesn’t guarantee improvment, but if you invest
yourself in their program and participate, you will see signficant improvements.

just my $0.02. happy to answer questions if anyone's got em.



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DrZero -

Thanks for the detailed review. Was the program only for college students, or were there some
oldies too?










kdavid -

I'd also like to know the answer to this question. I've heard nothing but good things about CET,
and, as I am already in Harbin, I'd like to look more into CET. The little research I've done
suggests, however, that it is only for college students, and I've already graduated.












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Learn Chinese online - Everything is making me sick! - Page 3 -

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Everything is making me sick!
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self-taught-mba -

Were those purple spots bluish purple as in like mold?

I don't recall spotting purple spotted once before?



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muyongshi -



Quote:

Actually the best breakfast I ever had was plain mantous with a handful of peanuts.

Switch the peanuts for 泡菜 and man I was addicted!!










flameproof -



Quote:

Now if somebody could tell me what a pink light in a "barber shop" means then I'll be totally set.

It means "No Barber Service Here". But there was something about a secret handshake......










cdn_in_bj -



Quote:

P.S. the Chinese often have similar issues eating Cheesy, and heavy foods when they come to the
west.

Actually the cheese/dairy thing is not related to stomach bacteria, but rather because of a lack
of an enzyme (lactase) required to break down lactose, the primary sugar in milk. Most ethnic
Chinese are lactose-intolerant to various degrees (and this applies to those who grew up overseas
too), with symptoms ranging from a bit of stomach gas to more serious effects such as cramps and
diarrhea. The strange exception is yoghurt, and studies have indicated that the bacterial cultures
in yoghurt seem to aid in the digestion of lactose.

In the west you can find lactose-free milk for those that are lactose intolerant, however I have
yet to find this here. The other solution is to take lactase pills (which contain the needed
enzyme), but I have not seen these for sale here either, though I have not specifically looked for
them.

I came across an interesting article discussing the apparent benefits of consuming yoghurt, one of
which is prevention of e.coli infection! I've always known that "good bacteria can fight bad
bacteria", but this is the first time I have seen this discussed in depth:

http://www.usprobiotics.org/docs/Sci...%C2%B0%206.pdf

So perhaps we should "do as the Chinese do", and consume lots of yoghurt while in China!

Regarding diarrhea, I'm afraid that this is normal here, even for the locals. I remember when I
first got here I would have stomach "difficulties" (sometimes diarrhea, but not always) that would
last for several days or even weeks. After 2 years of being here, these seemed to have tapered
off, although I still get the occasional "outbreak".

You just have to be careful about what you eat here. I know some on this board will disagree, but
I personally would avoid eating from outdoor food vendors, especially those selling food that has
been directly exposed to the air/dust. Also go easy on the hot and spicy foods (especially dishes
containing the numbing Sichuan pepper). You even have to be careful when buying groceries at a
supermarket as they are not very strict here regarding produce handling, and I think it was
Heifeng who cautioned against buying frozen foods. If you're living in dusty Beijing, you may want
to consider wearing a mask when you're out as I suspect there may be some nasty germs in the dust.
I don't think there's any problem with drinking the tap water in Beijing, especially if you boil
it; I used to drink it all the time before I started buying spring/mineral water. Actually I think
the tap water here is pretty good, at least it is miles ahead of HK's tap water in terms of taste.

And again, eat lots of yoghurt. For the ladies, there may be other side-benefits too but then we'd
be getting off-topic.










heifeng -



Quote:

So perhaps we should "do as the Chinese do", and consume lots of yoghurt while in China!

I try to eat yogurt out here quite often (the brands out here are actually not bad...mmmm creamy
full fat), but make sure you check the date on it and make sure it was properly refrigerated.



Quote:

You just have to be careful about what you eat here. I know some on this board will disagree, but
I personally would avoid eating from outdoor food vendors, especially those selling food that has
been directly exposed to the air/dust.

I think vendor food is an exciting part of China, so we just need to learn to select wisely. this
word of wisdom was going to be a part of a great thread I've had in the back of my head for a
while: "Things I've learned while living in BJ" but never posted...
1) Don't eat tanghulu that is uncovered.
reason, on windy days you can only imagine what nasty dustiness is stuck on it. Once I was riding
my bike behind a tanghulu vendor riding his bike during a nasty windy/sandstormy day and made a
mental note never to buy uncovered tanghulu again. Can you imagine how much street dust must have
been stuck onto that sugar coating.
2) Don't eat malatang next to puddles on the road~ same idea actually...malatang just seems
unsanitary anyway, but factor in some puddles and cars running through them...ughh scary.



Quote:

Were those purple spots bluish purple as in like mold?

I don't recall spotting purple spotted once before?

No, it was technically a huazhuanr (sometimes after they weigh it the label says
mantou...sometimes huazhuanr and its white and purple speckled.) Its really big, about the size of
a softball and really good, and thats apparently why I wolfed it down!




Quote:

Switch the peanuts for 泡菜 and man I was addicted!!

mmmm wumei has really really good 辣萝卜块。。。ok that's a bit off topic..moving right
along



Quote:

Actually the best breakfast I ever had was plain mantous with a handful of peanuts.

uhh ohh..peanuts...another food that needs to be chewed carefully. That and mantou is just asking
for trouble




Quote:

Regarding diarrhea, I'm afraid that this is normal here, even for the locals. I remember when I
first got here I would have stomach "difficulties" (sometimes diarrhea, but not always) that would
last for several days or even weeks. After 2 years of being here, these seemed to have tapered
off, although I still get the occasional "outbreak".

haha, I've noticed people vomit ALOT in china...not just from drinking...or maybe that's just
because one of my bus stops is next to a hospital...and the ladies throwing up are all
pregnant...i dunno...or I'm just unlucky and end up witnessing alot of vomit and vomiting in
general, so there are definitely locals getting "outbreaks" one way or the other out here too.










gougou -



Quote:

make sure it was properly refrigerated.

But how do you do that, in a country where the cold chain (i.e. temperature-controlled logistics)
is still one of the largest headaches in retail?










heifeng -

ask your magic eight ball i guess










cdn_in_bj -



Quote:

Can you imagine how much street dust must have been stuck onto that sugar coating.

Yes, exactly. I think most of us probably come from places that are not as windy and dusty as
here, and may not realize how dirty street food can be. Oh how I miss those days of grabbing a
hotdog or a sausage-in-a-bun after a night of drinking.



Quote:

make sure it was properly refrigerated.

But how do you do that, in a country where the cold chain (i.e. temperature-controlled logistics)
is still one of the largest headaches in retail?

I've had yoghurt that I had inadvertantly left out of the fridge at room temperature for over
24hrs. Of course, the container was still sealed but the taste was right and I didn't experience
any problems afterwards.

Also, I recently had a couple of leftover "sticky rice with chicken wrapped in tea leaves" that I
had also left out at room temperature for over 48hrs. I knew I was taking a risk with the chicken
(back home they tell us to put chicken back in the fridge right away), but it was really good and
I was hungry. And again, no issues.

So perhaps that gives some thought to the notion of having to keep food refrigerated at all times.
Or maybe I was just lucky. But I think one should still be more careful with raw meat and frozen
foods. And in case you're wondering, I would never leave food out at home.



Quote:

No, it was technically a huazhuanr (sometimes after they weigh it the label says
mantou...sometimes huazhuanr and its white and purple speckled.)

So the speckles are supposed to be bits of green onion, right? But then shouldn't they be green,
not purple?










Rincewind -



Quote:



Quote:

No, it was technically a huazhuanr (sometimes after they weigh it the label says
mantou...sometimes huazhuanr and its white and purple speckled.)

So the speckles are supposed to be bits of green onion, right? But then shouldn't they be green,
not purple?

I've seen something matching the description in the shops here. I may be wrong but I thought the
purple bits were red beans? Those red beans seem to get into everything, even ice cream. I'm
gradually getting used to that but not quite yet.










lilongyue -

Does the OP know not to drink unboiled tap water? I came to China after two years in other Asian
countries, which included almost a year in India, so I had a stomach of steel by the time I
arrived. But, one time some unboiled tap water got mixed into my boiled drinking water (long
story) and I wound up with diarrhea, a fever, hot and cold flashes, and a general terrible
feeling. I eventually went and got antibiotics, and that cleared it up.

As far as I understand, most yogurt in China doesn't contain the active cultures that have the
health benefits discussed. The only one that does is the Japanese brand . . . damn, what's the
name. . . it's Yakult I think. If you want to eat yogurt to aid digestion you'll have to find that
brand.












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Chinese School - Remembering Simplified Hanzi 1 and Remembering Traditional Hanzi 1 - Page 2 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Remembering Simplified Hanzi 1 and Remembering Traditional Hanzi 1
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adrianlondon -

Any pricing for these yet? Were the japanese volumes expensive?



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Luobot -



Quote:

Hurrah! The world of Chinese learning will never be the same again. I am a satisfied disciple of
the Heisig method ...

I just got my checkbook all soggy salivating over it. Why does it sound too good to be true? Any
more testimonials?

JimmySeal, at 1500 chars per month, he has the learning rate at around 50 chars per day with
retention. Does this about equal your mileage on an average day? In other words, vol. 1 can be
swallowed in month 1 and vol. 2 is wiped clean the next month. All 3000 characters done in two
months with retention!










JimmySeal -

@adrianlondon

Dunno about the pricing, but as a reference, Remembering the Kanji, vol 1 (which would roughly
correspond to both Hanzi books, costs $32 on Amazon so I'd place the Chinese ones around $24-30
each (just a guess). A little pricey but not prohibitively expensive.


@luobot

1500 in a month might be a bit ambitious. 2-3 would be more realistic. I finished RTK (2042
characters) in about 3.5 months of moderately dedicated work. I tried to shoot for 40 a day, but
there were days when I took breaks, and other days when I went as high as 60 or 80 characters. I
think 2 months is very doable if you can spare about 1.5-2 hours most days to work on it.










sthubbar -

I have not used the Heizig method. I agree with the quote about not trying to learn all aspects of
the characters at once. If I have to choose between two options:

Option #1 - I can pronounce 3000 characters but might not be able to write them and some may not
even know what they mean.

Option #2 - I can write 3000 characters and know at least one meaning for each of them, but can
say very few of them.

I choose option #1. My goal is to be able to communicate in Chinese. In my opinion the most
important aspects of communication are listening and speaking, in that order. If I can read out
loud a string of characters and my ears can't understand what I'm reading then I need to improve
my listening skills, not improve my understanding of characters.

Now there are some people who are content to be able to read Chinese, and maybe don't understand
what is said so much and are shy to speak. If that is your goal then the Heisig method sounds like
a great option.

If you are interested in being able to communicate in Chinese, daily use of a spaced repetition
system is a great assistant in allowing a student to rapidly learn and retain the pronunciation,
and meaning if wanted, of many characters.










gato -



Quote:

Additionally, even after finishing, one must make an effort to review their learned knowledge
systematically or it will be forgotten.

This is a big qualification. How much review does one have to do with Heisig system? And by
review, do you mean that you have to review the Heisig book or merely review materials written in
Japanese or Chinese, whichever the case might be?

If the "review" needed is extensive, then I'm not sure you can really say that you actually
learned those 3000 characters in those two or three months.

In any case, I think the Heisig method has merits. It's basically a mnemonic system to associate
the shapes of characters with their meanings. If you don't use the mnemonics created by Heisig and
his co-author, I'm sure many of us have some of our own for the characters we've studied. But I do
find the idea of learning 1500 or 3000 characters before one studies any pronunciation or read any
material in the target language odd. I guess we'll just have to wait for JimmySeal to prove us
skeptics wrong when he starts reading Chinese newspapers in two months (though he does have a head
start by already knowing 2000 Japanese kanjis).










Mugi -



Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmySeal
I say without a doubt that the authors know what they are talking about and fully understand the
simple idea of hanzi phonetics (If you don't believe me, have a look at Heisig's Remembering the
Kanji, volume 2. Half the book is based on that concept.)

I'll try and do that - I'm intrigued after the authors made such a blatantly inaccurate comment.



Quote:

What he says is true. While 伯's makeup may suggest that it is pronounced similarly to 白, there
is nothing intrinsic about 白 (or its derivatives) that dictates that it is pronounced a certain
way and a trip around China will show that to be overwhelmingly true.

Who was it that said it's better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're ignorant
than to open it and prove the fact?
Although the most common pronunciation of 白 in Putonghua is bái, there is a second (literary)
reading, bó. In fact, in classical texts, 白 was sometimes used for 伯, precisely because the
pronunciation was the same. And to compound things, 伯 has a colloquial reading of bǎi. Most
educated Chinese should know that 'bai' is a colloquial pronunciation of 'bo' with respect to the
白 phonetic. To my knowledge, with only a couple of exceptions (read 'mo', which is actually
phonetically very close to 'bo'), all characters with the 白 phonetic are read as 'bai' and/or
'bo' in standard Putonghua. And as soon as you move away from standard Putonghua to local Mandarin
dialects, there is even greater consistency - often there is only one extent pronunciation
(particulary with regard to 白 vs 伯. Same thing in non Mandarin dialects, the pronunciation is
also almost always identical, although sometimes it differs in tone or aspirated/unaspirated
initial.
So contrary to your claim that "a trip around China will show that to be overwhelmingly true", in
actual fact (with this particular example anyway), a trip around China would prove the exact
opposite, whether you're talking about Mandarin or other Sinitic languages.



Quote:

Really all he is trying to do in that paragraph is assuage purists who think that learning
characters in terms of English is "wrong" or "unnatural." That's all.

Yes, I can appreciate what they're trying to say - I just think that it is irresponsible of
academics to make a blatantly false claim in order to market their book to the unknowing. In a
similar way, I don't think it is very responsible of these guys and a few others who casually pass
off mnemonics and pop etymologies as genuine character etymologies.










JimmySeal -

@sthubbar

Yes, if someone had to choose between options #1 and #2, #1 might very well be the better choice.
However the goal of Heisig's books are not to reach #2 and stop. It is simply an intermediate goal
on the road to literacy. So why learn the meaning before the pronunciation?
Well, the value of the system is that each character is given a unique spot in your brain, with a
mnemonic story to tie it there. And the markers you are giving it are not just unique, they are
familiar (they're English), not just some arbitrary syllable that holds no meaning to you.
In linking the character to its reading by rote memory, you are forming a hazy connection,
building the character-information relationship on quicksand.
By tying the characters to a unique and familiar word, you are building a strong foundation for
your character knowledge, so that the next step in the process, learning the readings, is
veritably a breeze.

@gato

By review, I mean review with flashcards or the like. That is, looking at a keyword, recalling the
mnemonic story, writing the character, and checking the answer.
Upon finishing the book, a learner will be able to immediately put their new knowledge to use, but
the keyword->character connections will weaken and fade over time if they are allowed to, just
like any type of knowledge. Mnemonics help a lot, but they are not infallible.
With spaced repetition, this can be reduced to very little daily review after a few more months of
reviewing.

Heisig does not pretend to enable people to read a newspaper, or anything for that matter, simply
by finishing his books. What the books do is give learners a strong familiarity with 3000
characters, which puts them in a prime position to tackle the rest of the task of becoming
literate.










JimmySeal -



Quote:

I'm intrigued after the authors made such a blatantly inaccurate comment.

There's nothing inaccurate about it.



Quote:

Who was it that said it's better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're ignorant
than to open it and prove the fact?

I repeat:

There is nothing intrinsic about 白 that dictates that it is pronounced a certain way and a trip
around China will show that to be overwhelmingly true.

That is, 白 is pronounced "bai" and "bo" in standard Mandarin. "mo" in other Mandarin dialects as
you say. It is "baak" in Cantonese, and various other similar syllables in other dialects. It's
"payk" in Korean, and "haku," "shiro," etc. in Japanese.
So which of the above is its inherent pronunciation, making the rest of them perversions of this
"pure syllable?"

These 5 strokes have no direct relation to pronunciation at all. The character is based on a
pictographic representation of a bright shining moon, devised to convey the meaning of "white,"
which just happens to be pronounced "bai" in Mandarin. Since all the character intrinsically
conveys is its meaning, "bai," "shiro," "white," and "blanco" are all equally valid names for this
character. The Chinese cannot lay claim to the single "correct" name of a character any more than
the Italians can dictate universal names for the alphabetic letters.

伯 can be said to have a phonetic relation to 白 insofar as it was conceived that way, but that
in no way suggests that 伯 has an "inherent" pronunciation, since 白 itself does not. Even if
the etymology historically states that 伯 is pronounced similarly to 白, that doesn't mean it
absolutely has to be that way. How many characters have deviated significantly from their original
etymologies? So if James Heisig wants to refer to 白 as "white", and 伯 as "chief," he has every
justification in doing so.

With that, I'll leave you with a line from Shakespeare which I think sums up my point quite well.
"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"










JimmySeal -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Mugi

In a similar way, I don't think it is very responsible of these guys and a few others who casually
pass off mnemonics and pop etymologies as genuine character etymologies.


Ahem.


Quote:


Originally Posted by Heisig

On one hand, much of the course is grounded in scholarly consensus on the history of the
characters. On the other, we have not hesitated to ignore established etymologies whenever doing
so seemed pedagogically useful....Should a student later turn to etymological studies, the
procedure we have followed will become more transparent, and the fact that we did not indicate
each departure from an established etymology should not cause any obstacle to learning.


Where is he passing of his mnemonics as genuine etymologies? All he claims to provide is an
effective means for learning characters, nothing more.










leosmith -



Quote:



Quote:

there is nothing in the nature of a character dictating that it must be verbalized one way or
another.

This statement is fundamentally wrong for the majority of characters

It sounds like you're saying in over 50% of the characters you can tell how it's pronounced by
looking at one of it's radicals. I've heard it's more like 30%. Am I understanding you correctly?


Quote:

The authors should perhaps read DeFrancis' The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy.

I haven't read said book, but I read on a forum somewhere that one of the myths that DeFrancis
dismisses is the ability to read most characters by looking at one of it's radicals. Do I have it
backwards?



Quote:

Any more testimonials?

I finished RTK1 (2042 kanji) in 7 months. It took 300 hours. I could have finished sooner, but
that would have meant more than 10hrs per week, and I didn't want to do that. I used paper
flashcards exclusivly. I think if I'd used it in conjunction with supermemo, it would have been
200-250 hrs.



Quote:

How much review does one have to do with Heisig system?

I need to review them until I'm actually using them. Like vocabulary, I review Heisig stuff until
I'm actually reading and writing words. Like all mnemonics, they slip away, but I no longer need
them anymore; they've served their purpose. I've got the RTK1 stuff in supermemo. For reasons I
won't go into, my Japanese is on hold right now. The RTK1 reviews take about 10 minutes per day.
10 minutes per day to maintain 2000+ characters isn't bad IMO. When I finally start using all of
them regularly, that will go to 0.



Quote:

the goal of Heisig's books are not to reach #2 and stop. It is simply an intermediate goal on the
road to literacy.

This is true. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this, so let me expand a little.

Normal road to literacy:
1)learn words & their characters
2)read simple literature
3)repeat steps 1 & 2 many times
4)read normal literature

Heisigs road to literacy:
1)learn characters (Heisig)
2)learn words
3)read simple literature
4)repeat steps 2 & 3 many times
5)read normal literature

Notice that the last step is the same. Heisig is just one step on the road. Granted, the road is
different, but it ends in the same place.

Heisig is not a good choice for someone who is having to learn the characters using a different
method; using 2 methods to learn the same character is generally not a good idea. Heisig is not a
good choice for someone who can't do mnemonics, or can't finish the free PDF.

Some people don't like the idea of dropping everything to do an intensive Heisig study. This is
what Heisig recommends, but there are ways around it. I chose to work on it only 2 hrs per day,
and continue with my other studies.

Also, if you don't like Heisig's order of learning characters, and you must learn things in the
order you encounter them, you can always just use his mnemonic technique and ignore the order.

Whichever way you choose, I recommend using an SRS to review. Good luck!












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madizi -

He is asking: "What in a world is mnemonics?"



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wontonsoup -

the connection...well they are both read as jian, and they only differ by the left hand side's two
strokes.












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Chinese School - ZDT 0.7.0 beta 3 available -

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ZDT 0.7.0 beta 3 available
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bogleg -

The new ZDT is out and available for download.
It has a couple of user requested goodies in it so please check it out and provide some feedback.

What's new since 0.7.0 beta 2

* Custom import will now import a better percentage of entries for S P D and T P D patterns.
* Self Review mode improvements. Can now show more than one aspect (character, pinyin,
definition) on a card at a time. Also, users can now score themselves on the test.
* User database can be changed without restarting application.
* Special characters (like spaces, periods, commas, etc) can now be included in pinyin and
character fields.

Please check out the ZDT blog for a full list of changes. Thanks!

Chris



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drahnier -

Thanks very much for this new beta!

My problems reagarding handedict and adso plugins with beta2 are gone. Both plugins work just fine
with beta3.










TapioT -

Hi,

My category view stopped working after going from 0.7 beta 2 to 0.7 beta 3. The stack trace is
enclosed.

I used the same user.script file in both 0.7beta2 and in 0.7beta3; beta 2 works fine but beta 3
does not want to open one of my categories.

I am using Ubuntu 07.04 on a AMD64 (2.6.20-16 SMP).










bogleg -

There must be some sort of system configuration weirdness going on regarding those problems you
mentioned. Because I didn't explicitly fix anything regarding them. We'll have to keep an eye on
them.

Chris










drahnier -

Must be really strange then, because I had the same behavior on two systems. Anyway, on both
systems zdt is now working nicely.










bogleg -

Hi Tapiot,

Did you happen to install beta3 over your beta2 install? I would suggest first trying to install
it to a new directory and see if you have the same problems.

Please let me know if that fixes it.

Thanks

Chris










TapioT -

Thanks!

Reinstalling the beta 3 into a new directory and copying the user.script to it worked.

-Tapio










drahnier -

I'm unable to add a new defintion with special characters (see picture). Wasn't this supposed to
work with 07b3?










bogleg -

Yes, it's supposed to. Anyway, for now the workaround is to use ... instead of 。。。.

Chris










drahnier -

I guess, I better wait for the next beta ...












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Justin Goldberg -

It's kind of hard to find the subforum I want when I visit the homepage.

For a nice plugin, see the forum jump thing at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php

I'm not sure if there is a similar plugin for vbulleting though.



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Chao Liang -

i think they are no different, you can click the "Forums" link, and maybe you'll feel better












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Learn mandarin - I Hate Hanzi - Page 2 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
I Hate Hanzi
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Myriam -

sthubbar, I understand your predicament .
I think time is worth saving, so I'm not against simplification per se, but I don't like the way
characters have been simplified (one can do better : whenever I think about it, 很烦恼). So I
think there is room for improvement (I'm thinking shorthand with phonetic radicals (priority given
to writing instead of reading) and characters with the same "spelling" but not the same meaning
depending on the context - a price to pay I guess - for everyday use).



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Ari 桑 -

Hm. Characters got easier for me the more I learned. Not that my retention rate is great if I
don't practice, but I wasn't ever really intimidated by the number of characters (and since I'm
learning simplified its not as terrifying of a task, if I lived in HK or taiwan I'd be scared).
What is hard is sometimes how chinese people break up words and mix them into things that don't
make sense to me. For example, lots of news article headlines, they can be tricky, even if the
article contect isn't so tricky.










JimmySeal -

I find hanzi intimidating (not so much for Japanese kanji anymore), but I love them. It's hard to
say whether Chinese and Japanese would be better or worse with or without them, but there's no way
around them.

Pronunciation and tone are the most important facets for me, but I still swear by the Heisig
method. It's easy to get distracted by the idea that it "only teaches meaning and writing," but to
think that way is to miss the big picture.
The most important aspect about RTK is that it gives the characters a specific, concrete place in
your brain and strips out everything but what is essential for remembering the character: one
unique keyword, and a mnemonic story to connect the keyword to the character itself. Trying to
learn to recognize the character, learn several meanings, and at least one pronunciation and tone,
all without any mnemonic to tie it to memory, you wind up with too many balls in the air. It's
easy to fall flat on your face.
Once the character is firmly tied to memory, adding additional information (pronunciation, other
meanings) becomes much easier, because you have an identity for the character and are just
learning more about an old friend. And that is the strength of the Heisig system.

Similar characters are probably a problem for everyone, but again, RTK helps here too. Trying to
distinguish 録, 緑 and 縁 simply on rote memory, you can go nuts but if you have three distinct
mnemonic stories tying their component parts to three different keywords, it's near impossible to
confuse them.

It's a shame that Remembering the Hanzi still hasn't been published, but it will be soon, and I
highly recommend giving it a try.










simonlaing -

Hey all,

I think to be able to write characters out, over and over for several years, requires a little of
a sado-mascochistic tendency, I have met those people who end class and say things "Oh boy 30 more
characters about old sung dynasty slang to learn I can't wait!. " Yes， they used to scare me too.
I found making flash cards and testing the ones that you don't know over and over helps as you
spend time on the hard words not the easy ones. Also break the charaters in to their radical parts
to help remember them. I found it helps with writing as well as reading.

But the one thing that can keep you going is that written and use of chinese characters separates
the beginners from the intermediates. The intermediates still have to spend long hours studying
characters but they're used to it more and have stopped making excuses and don't procrastinate
anymore about it.
I like to see the high drop out rate. People who come to the unversity and say I am going to only
speak chinese (though there is no requirement to do this) and go to every class every day for the
whole year. Then 3 months later you see them about once a week in class, and the other 6 days in
the bar, explaining the benefits of Bar Chinese and night street food to you.

In your head, you know it was writing the Hanzi for hours every night that drove him to the
bottle. That's when the hours of card making and hanzi writing pay off. You made it to
intermediate student, others didn't. You've put in the time, you've gone distance, you've rocked
the chinese. (there's still lots more Chinese to learn, but when you realize you've made it to
intermediate level, that is a good feeling).

And I don't think learning characters gets easier, you just get better at dealing with it later.

Have fun,
Simon
P.S. It is also cool when you are able to read soft porn short stories from the bus station or the
magazine duzhe 读者。 If you've done 2-3 years you can probably handle it.










pandagirl -

Hanzi-->汉字,right? don't hate her,love her,u will learn more chinese culture.ok?

i think it will more good affect if u create the friend feeling with 汉字. trust me.

if have any problem,u can contact.i am glad to help u.

this is my first time to come here,a new day.happy everyone.










atitarev -

Interesting that there are blogs about "I hate Kanji" (the Japanese version of Hanzi). The
frustration is sometimes for a different reason - inconsistency between reading and writing.
Although the Chinese use more characters, the readings are much more consistent an din 95% or more
- you learn a character, it stays with you!

Someone said - to learn Chinese characters - you have to love them - think about them, write them,
analyse them, compare them. Learning Chinese thoroughly if you do it part-time is sometimes
completely devastating on social life. It's a hard hobby, no doubt.










cdn_in_bj -



Quote:

It is also cool when you are able to read soft porn short stories from the bus station or the
magazine duzhe 读者

Now there's an incentive I hadn't thought of!










YuehanHao -

As a fellow student, I feel sympathy for the thread originator, and so I will phrase this question
in the first person (as I have asked myself more than once):

Why did I set my mind on learning Chinese, if I had first intended to avoid frustration, anger,
feelings of inadequacy, etc.? Obviously we all have our individual reasons to attempt the feat, or
we wouldn't be here (although, I don't know, perhaps not everyone else feels those same feelings I
mentioned!).

But nevertheless, it seems true that there are innumerable (to my small mind) languages and
cultures in the world, most of which languages are more readily apprehended by English speakers
than Chinese. For instance, despite an overwhelming imbalance in the hours of study I have devoted
to learning Chinese, I have grown comparatively much more proficient at reading Spanish simply by
regularly reading a weekly newspaper while eating meals! How embarrassing!

In a way, the lost opportunities for so little progress seem a tragic waste when I contemplate as
a dispassionate observer, but obviously, from back in my own skin, learning characters and tones
still seems worthwhile -- or else it is the feeling I would just waste time in some other worse
way instead...

约翰好！










DrZero -

In a sense I agree that to become an intermediate student/user of Chinese, one needs a strong
command of characters. I mean, if you can't read, then you aren't a good all-around user of
Chinese. But I don't necessarily agree that one needs to have a good command of characters in
order to speak and understand well (and perhaps even to an advanced degree). I just don't think
the relationship is that strong. Cases in point, illiterate people in China, and some ABCs in
America, who can't read but who can easily understand TV dramas, movies and probably even the news.
Conversely, many people develop proficiency in reading and writing but would still struggle in
everyday casual spoken interactions. (That goes not only for Mandarin learners but for English
learners as well; I've met many graduate students from China in the U.S. who can read novels and
newspapers in English, but have trouble understanding even basic English utterances when spoken at
native speed.)
So yes, to be an intermediate or advanced all-around user of Mandarin, it's necessary to know
characters well. But I would not overemphasize their usefulness in helping a person to speak and
understand well.










gato -

Another problem with not being able to read is that you'll have trouble using a dictionary,
whereas looking up words in a dictionary is probably the more effective way to learn new
vocabulary for intermediate/advanced learners. You are not be able to find someone to explain
every new vocab to you orally, so not being able to use a dictionary will become a bottleneck to
learning.


Quote:

Cases in point, illiterate people in China, and some ABCs in America, who can't read but who can
easily understand TV dramas, movies and probably even the news.

Period costume dramas using classical Chinese in dialogs probably will be hard to understand. News
will be hard to understand, too, because of the advanced vocabulary and the bookish
grammar/sentence structure.

Though there is a large gap between written and spoken Chinese, more educated speakers tend to use
more bookish grammatical elements and vocabulary (i.e. those derived from classical Chinese, like
chengyu's) when speaking. An illiterate person will probably find that kind of speech hard to
understand.












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